Carlos Machado Interview
23 Sep 2005
Subtle Destruction
The Irrepressible Carlos Machado
Carlos Machado is a living legend of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. The eldest of the five Machado brothers, Carlos' inspired teaching style and infamous grappling techniques have spread far from Rio de Janeiro around the world. Briefly in Australia some time ago as part of a dynamite tour Carlos caught up with BlackBelt Digital Video Producer Jeremy Ta'kody for this exclusive interview.
JT: Carlos, thank you for your time.
Carlos Machado: You're welcome.
JT: To begin with, can you describe your childhood growing up with the art of Jiu Jitsu?
Carlos Machado: My brothers and I, through my mom's initiative… we trained initially with Carlos Gracie Senior, and then with Rolls Gracie and with Carlos Gracie Junior who was the main instructor. We were always hanging out with them as cousins. I started when I was four, my brothers started very early too. We pretty much had guidance off and on from most of our relatives from the Gracie family as we grew up. Being around them and having the late Carlos Gracie Senior as a mentor was very instrumental because he always gave us direction in terms of a healthy lifestyle. He also took a lot of consideration of the philosophical aspects of martial arts. A lot of what you see today in the approach and in the Machado way has a lot to do with the way we were taught by our uncle.
JT: The philosophical side of Jiu Jitsu, would you say that it has a spiritual component, a spiritual level?
Carlos Machado: Jiu Jitsu is certainly a spiritual discipline up to a point because you can improve yourself in a positive manner. People that are out of shape, unhealthy or even trouble makers they can become better people through Jiu Jitsu. I consider that to be a spiritual evolution. The other thing is being careful of your own ego for instance… One of the things I remember from my uncle… being humble. I remember the character of my uncle, the late Rolls Gracie, at the time the greatest champion in the country. He was a very mellow, very meek person, yet in the ring he was like a lion. So he didn't instil fear, he instilled admiration and love from the ones that were close to him. And like I said Uncle Carlos he was definitely my Guru if I could say that. He taught me Jiu Jitsu as a spiritual discipline, not only fighting.
JT: In regards to fighting, you have had a highly successful competition career in Brazil and later also in America. How do current levels of competition compare from now to then?
Carlos Machado: Definitely Brazilian Jiu Jitsu this day has been so popularised. There are so many more talents practicing that the level has grown higher. There are trends in the way we train which we see in what's going on in the tournaments. Information travels a lot faster. You see here in Australia students that travel to the Pan Am championships or to the Worlds and come back and drill what they have learned. You have people here toe-to-toe with the Brazilians. You know, the blue and purple belts. At that time in Brazil, Jiu Jitsu was not as popular as now, but it still had good fighters, especially in Rio, which was the centre. I still believe that Rio is the centre of Jiu Jitsu in Brazil. But I think today competition, due to the amount of people, they have become more challenging than at the time that we competed despite the fact that we had good matches and great fighters, but just not in the same amount (numbers). So I think that it is definitely a plus that Jiu Jitsu has grown.
JT: What was it like moving from Brazil to America? Were there any people that helped you?
Carlos Machado: I think of all the people that we met along the way, especially and most definitely Chuck Norris has been our greatest advocate to this day. He is a good close friend of ours. Bob Wall was also very instrumental, especially when we had our first school, which we opened in 92. He was the landlord and we didn't have rent for eight or ten months. And even after we started paying rent it was a very minimal fee, so both Chuck and Bob were very instrumental. Richard Norton definitely also and many more wonderful people.
JT: On a technical level, what key principles must be learned in order to progress from white to blue belt, blue to purple and so on to Black Belt.
Carlos Machado: There is a system I try to implement at my school. There are around eight basic scenarios in Jiu Jitsu, from takedown to mount, to guard pass, to guard defence, to side mount, top mount, mount etc. I think that for every stripe you should learn at least two moves for each of those scenarios. So that would amount to about sixteen techniques per stripe. So there are an average of 50, if I can talk in numbers, and average of fifty techniques would give at least enough foundation for bluebelt level. And it keeps building up like that to purple level. The objective is to make the syllabus or curriculum not unattainable for the average person, but at the same time, not watered down that would compromise the standard of the art.
JT: In your opinion, how long should it take to earn a Black belt In Brazilian Jiu Jitsu?
Carlos Machado: I would say that a student who trained at least twice a week on a consistent level around six or seven years.
JT: What is the most important thing to understand about Jiu Jitsu?
Carlos Machado: I think the flow from once situation to another.
A lot of times when you are talking about escaping you may have weak escapes but a good guard. So a lot of times because maybe people tend not to be able to pass your guard you can get away with it, so you are not forced enough to work your escapes from the bottom. But when you get stuck on the bottom you should be able to learn to flow out of it so that you can go back to whatever strengths you have in your game, whether it is putting the guy back in the guard or whatever. So I think that defence plays a major role. I think that if you can at least hold your own against somebody who is a tough competitor, and eventually 'turn a notch' and try to finish him afterwards, it is a strategy that works more effectively in my opinion than just having one dimension in your game. So defence definitely, but of course you need everything else. It helps to be able to connect the dots.
JT: Does that view change as you get older?
Carlos Machado: Getting older means you train smarter. You can still train hard but you learn a lot. I mean if you were to train three times a day, everyday, then that's not healthy even if you are a young person. You need recovery time. I guess discipline is a factor at any age and trying to figure out problems or to be creative. I use the wrestler Dan Gable a lot as an inspiration because he would make notes of things he wanted to work before every session. After he was done he would have answered some of those notes and come up with other questions. So each training session was not just a workout session. It was an improvement every time, so that he was going forward in every session. And I think that takes a lot of commitment because it easy to come and roll but not do that much thinking or improving.
JT: What do you feel are your greatest achievements?
Carlos Machado: I think that winning several tournaments in Brazil and US (pause), but more the fact that I was able to form good students who have achieved things on a personal level as well. And also that I have kids now they are so important (pause). Forming good students has given me more pleasure than my own accomplishments.
JT: What is one thing you want to do or achieve before you die?
Carlos Machado: Wow… I want to reach as many people as I can through martial arts. What else… Let's see. I don't want to climb the Everest, but let's see, I would like to tour the Amazon…In Brazil that's a place I don't know yet… Also Id like to see the great coral reefs here in Australia. There is so much to do.
JT: How do you want to be remembered?
Carlos Machado: Remembered? A good coach to my students… in saying that I teach them good techniques and also good ethics. Not just the fighting itself but beyond the mat. You know I hope that maybe I was able to reach out to them in their lives.
JT: As you understand it, how did Brazilian Jiu Jitsu get to Australia?
Carlos Machado: I'll go back to the roots. It all started with the Gracie's and my family; my relatives who built an art in Brazil that had not been seen here. We were fortunate enough to meet people like John Will and Richard Norton who have both been instrumental. I think John Will for his part has done a lot for spreading Jiu Jitsu here. Of course now you have other black belts, and several other individuals who are trying to accomplish the same. But I think if I could say in terms of a pioneer of Jiu Jitsu, that John Will is definitely ahead of his time. He is a great practitioner and teacher of the art. He has done a lot for spreading Machado Jiu Jitsu. He could have gone with other people but he has remained very loyal. I must also say that when I am here I look at the people on the mat, the friendships, the way you train together, I feel like I am at home. It makes me feel very honoured.
JT: You have other direct students and friends here, Anthony Perosh for example.
Carlos Machado: Yes, Anthony Perosh has always been very dedicated. He is always a student who trains hard. When I first met him he had already had some training experience in Australia and he was also in LA for a little while. But I didn't know how committed he was up to the point where I visit him and see that he has a big school. He has a lot of the qualities of a great martial artist and also a good person. I can't say enough of how well I think of him.
JT: What are your thoughts on the level of BJJ practitioners in Australia?
Carlos Machado: I think Jiu Jitsu here is excellent. It is spreading everywhere. Like I said information travels fast. John Will has done a great job and people here are hungry to learn so the level is improving fast. People can buy books, videos. They watch tapes of tournaments. People are learning fast. Like what is taking place in the U.S. for instance, in the past the U.S. has been lagging behind Brazil, because Brazil is where everything started. But nowadays there are so many black belts there. It is like here, you have advanced students here who have been training for years, and that's kind of like showing the effects. It trickles down on all those people who are just joining BJJ now.
JT: When are you coming back to Australia?
Carlos Machado: I'm truly thinking of coming back to Australia probably a year from now, but choosing a season that's a little bit warmer and spending at least a month here. Working, but also to have more time to sightsee and travel.
JT: Carlos, thank you for your time.
Carlos Machado: You're welcome.
The Irrepressible Carlos Machado
Carlos Machado is a living legend of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. The eldest of the five Machado brothers, Carlos' inspired teaching style and infamous grappling techniques have spread far from Rio de Janeiro around the world. Briefly in Australia some time ago as part of a dynamite tour Carlos caught up with BlackBelt Digital Video Producer Jeremy Ta'kody for this exclusive interview.
JT: Carlos, thank you for your time.
Carlos Machado: You're welcome.
JT: To begin with, can you describe your childhood growing up with the art of Jiu Jitsu?
Carlos Machado: My brothers and I, through my mom's initiative… we trained initially with Carlos Gracie Senior, and then with Rolls Gracie and with Carlos Gracie Junior who was the main instructor. We were always hanging out with them as cousins. I started when I was four, my brothers started very early too. We pretty much had guidance off and on from most of our relatives from the Gracie family as we grew up. Being around them and having the late Carlos Gracie Senior as a mentor was very instrumental because he always gave us direction in terms of a healthy lifestyle. He also took a lot of consideration of the philosophical aspects of martial arts. A lot of what you see today in the approach and in the Machado way has a lot to do with the way we were taught by our uncle.
JT: The philosophical side of Jiu Jitsu, would you say that it has a spiritual component, a spiritual level?
Carlos Machado: Jiu Jitsu is certainly a spiritual discipline up to a point because you can improve yourself in a positive manner. People that are out of shape, unhealthy or even trouble makers they can become better people through Jiu Jitsu. I consider that to be a spiritual evolution. The other thing is being careful of your own ego for instance… One of the things I remember from my uncle… being humble. I remember the character of my uncle, the late Rolls Gracie, at the time the greatest champion in the country. He was a very mellow, very meek person, yet in the ring he was like a lion. So he didn't instil fear, he instilled admiration and love from the ones that were close to him. And like I said Uncle Carlos he was definitely my Guru if I could say that. He taught me Jiu Jitsu as a spiritual discipline, not only fighting.
JT: In regards to fighting, you have had a highly successful competition career in Brazil and later also in America. How do current levels of competition compare from now to then?
Carlos Machado: Definitely Brazilian Jiu Jitsu this day has been so popularised. There are so many more talents practicing that the level has grown higher. There are trends in the way we train which we see in what's going on in the tournaments. Information travels a lot faster. You see here in Australia students that travel to the Pan Am championships or to the Worlds and come back and drill what they have learned. You have people here toe-to-toe with the Brazilians. You know, the blue and purple belts. At that time in Brazil, Jiu Jitsu was not as popular as now, but it still had good fighters, especially in Rio, which was the centre. I still believe that Rio is the centre of Jiu Jitsu in Brazil. But I think today competition, due to the amount of people, they have become more challenging than at the time that we competed despite the fact that we had good matches and great fighters, but just not in the same amount (numbers). So I think that it is definitely a plus that Jiu Jitsu has grown.
JT: What was it like moving from Brazil to America? Were there any people that helped you?
Carlos Machado: I think of all the people that we met along the way, especially and most definitely Chuck Norris has been our greatest advocate to this day. He is a good close friend of ours. Bob Wall was also very instrumental, especially when we had our first school, which we opened in 92. He was the landlord and we didn't have rent for eight or ten months. And even after we started paying rent it was a very minimal fee, so both Chuck and Bob were very instrumental. Richard Norton definitely also and many more wonderful people.
JT: On a technical level, what key principles must be learned in order to progress from white to blue belt, blue to purple and so on to Black Belt.
Carlos Machado: There is a system I try to implement at my school. There are around eight basic scenarios in Jiu Jitsu, from takedown to mount, to guard pass, to guard defence, to side mount, top mount, mount etc. I think that for every stripe you should learn at least two moves for each of those scenarios. So that would amount to about sixteen techniques per stripe. So there are an average of 50, if I can talk in numbers, and average of fifty techniques would give at least enough foundation for bluebelt level. And it keeps building up like that to purple level. The objective is to make the syllabus or curriculum not unattainable for the average person, but at the same time, not watered down that would compromise the standard of the art.
JT: In your opinion, how long should it take to earn a Black belt In Brazilian Jiu Jitsu?
Carlos Machado: I would say that a student who trained at least twice a week on a consistent level around six or seven years.
JT: What is the most important thing to understand about Jiu Jitsu?
Carlos Machado: I think the flow from once situation to another.
A lot of times when you are talking about escaping you may have weak escapes but a good guard. So a lot of times because maybe people tend not to be able to pass your guard you can get away with it, so you are not forced enough to work your escapes from the bottom. But when you get stuck on the bottom you should be able to learn to flow out of it so that you can go back to whatever strengths you have in your game, whether it is putting the guy back in the guard or whatever. So I think that defence plays a major role. I think that if you can at least hold your own against somebody who is a tough competitor, and eventually 'turn a notch' and try to finish him afterwards, it is a strategy that works more effectively in my opinion than just having one dimension in your game. So defence definitely, but of course you need everything else. It helps to be able to connect the dots.
JT: Does that view change as you get older?
Carlos Machado: Getting older means you train smarter. You can still train hard but you learn a lot. I mean if you were to train three times a day, everyday, then that's not healthy even if you are a young person. You need recovery time. I guess discipline is a factor at any age and trying to figure out problems or to be creative. I use the wrestler Dan Gable a lot as an inspiration because he would make notes of things he wanted to work before every session. After he was done he would have answered some of those notes and come up with other questions. So each training session was not just a workout session. It was an improvement every time, so that he was going forward in every session. And I think that takes a lot of commitment because it easy to come and roll but not do that much thinking or improving.
JT: What do you feel are your greatest achievements?
Carlos Machado: I think that winning several tournaments in Brazil and US (pause), but more the fact that I was able to form good students who have achieved things on a personal level as well. And also that I have kids now they are so important (pause). Forming good students has given me more pleasure than my own accomplishments.
JT: What is one thing you want to do or achieve before you die?
Carlos Machado: Wow… I want to reach as many people as I can through martial arts. What else… Let's see. I don't want to climb the Everest, but let's see, I would like to tour the Amazon…In Brazil that's a place I don't know yet… Also Id like to see the great coral reefs here in Australia. There is so much to do.
JT: How do you want to be remembered?
Carlos Machado: Remembered? A good coach to my students… in saying that I teach them good techniques and also good ethics. Not just the fighting itself but beyond the mat. You know I hope that maybe I was able to reach out to them in their lives.
JT: As you understand it, how did Brazilian Jiu Jitsu get to Australia?
Carlos Machado: I'll go back to the roots. It all started with the Gracie's and my family; my relatives who built an art in Brazil that had not been seen here. We were fortunate enough to meet people like John Will and Richard Norton who have both been instrumental. I think John Will for his part has done a lot for spreading Jiu Jitsu here. Of course now you have other black belts, and several other individuals who are trying to accomplish the same. But I think if I could say in terms of a pioneer of Jiu Jitsu, that John Will is definitely ahead of his time. He is a great practitioner and teacher of the art. He has done a lot for spreading Machado Jiu Jitsu. He could have gone with other people but he has remained very loyal. I must also say that when I am here I look at the people on the mat, the friendships, the way you train together, I feel like I am at home. It makes me feel very honoured.
JT: You have other direct students and friends here, Anthony Perosh for example.
Carlos Machado: Yes, Anthony Perosh has always been very dedicated. He is always a student who trains hard. When I first met him he had already had some training experience in Australia and he was also in LA for a little while. But I didn't know how committed he was up to the point where I visit him and see that he has a big school. He has a lot of the qualities of a great martial artist and also a good person. I can't say enough of how well I think of him.
JT: What are your thoughts on the level of BJJ practitioners in Australia?
Carlos Machado: I think Jiu Jitsu here is excellent. It is spreading everywhere. Like I said information travels fast. John Will has done a great job and people here are hungry to learn so the level is improving fast. People can buy books, videos. They watch tapes of tournaments. People are learning fast. Like what is taking place in the U.S. for instance, in the past the U.S. has been lagging behind Brazil, because Brazil is where everything started. But nowadays there are so many black belts there. It is like here, you have advanced students here who have been training for years, and that's kind of like showing the effects. It trickles down on all those people who are just joining BJJ now.
JT: When are you coming back to Australia?
Carlos Machado: I'm truly thinking of coming back to Australia probably a year from now, but choosing a season that's a little bit warmer and spending at least a month here. Working, but also to have more time to sightsee and travel.
JT: Carlos, thank you for your time.
Carlos Machado: You're welcome.
